[1950] daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/11/89 01:35 (114 lines) Subject: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 01:37:32 EST From: root@CHARON.MIT.EDU (Initializer.SysDaemon) To: ca-mtg@BLOOM-BEACON.MIT.EDU ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- leira (Linda L. Julien): I attended the MIT Gilbert & Sullivan Players' performance of "The Sorcerer" on Friday night, but left early because I was offended. In the middle of the first act, the sorcerer pulled out a black cloth with a (upright) silver pentagram on it, layed it on the floor, then started chanting about the conjuring of demons. I would have thought the people in the cast and crew were better informed than that. An upright pentagram is a religious symbol of Pagans in general and Witches in particular. As a Wiccan priestess and a Pagan minister, I deeply resent my religion being associated with the "conjuring of demons." I will go into detail about what IS associated with my religion with anyone who cares to ask me in person. In general, religious persecution is not prevalent at MIT, nor is it tolerated. It is, of course, possible (and perhaps likely) that the Gilbert & Sullivan Players were truly unaware that their actions were offensive to Pagans. They will be informed that this is the case, and it is my hope that they will be more considerate in the future. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... --[1950]-- (nref = [1951]) [1951] tytso@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/11/89 21:55 (18 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 On the other hand, a pentagram is commonly used (at least in many SF&F worlds) as a sign of protection, to contain the conjured demons within the pentagram. (For example, see the Infocom game "Lurking Horror.") I don't know if this actually works, since I've never tried summoning a demon before. :-) It didn't seem to me that J. Wells displayed the pentagram upright for the sake of displaying it upright, though. It seemed more like he was unrolling and shaking out a rolled up pentagram before placing it on the ground. On the other hand, a lot of people easily take offense when the religious symbols of their religion are taken lightly. I'd bet that the G&S Players would have gotten a lot complaints if they had used a silver cross or a silver Star of David instead of the pentagram. Unfortunately for Wiccans, many fantasy stories use people's common idea of what pentagons and couldrons and black cats and so forth mean, since it's the best way to tell a story. --[1951]-- (pref = [1950], nref = [1955]) [1952] daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/12/89 01:34 (125 lines) Subject: New quotes for Sun Nov 12 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 89 01:36:52 EST From: root@CHARON.MIT.EDU (Initializer.SysDaemon) To: ca-mtg@BLOOM-BEACON.MIT.EDU --------------------------------------------------------------------------- eichin (Mark W. Eichin): Oh No... Fundamentalist Pagans! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- wesommer (Bill Sommerfeld): Think about what life would be like if anything which was offensive to anyone anywhere was banned. --[1952]-- (nref = [1953]) [1953] henry@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/12/89 01:43 (1 line) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sun Nov 12 on banning offensive speech: savour the silence... --[1953]-- (pref = [1952], nref = [1954]) [1955] leira@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/12/89 14:29 (11 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 As I said, things are not invoked into pentagrams, but into TRIANGLES. (This is a very common misconception). The pentagram is in fact a symbol of protection, but my understanding of Ceremonial Magic is that the Magician stands in a circle while invoking things into his/her triangle (if practicing that particular branch of Ceremonial Magic), and the pentacle (a disc with a pentagram engraved on it) is used similarly to the way it is used in a Wiccan ceremony. There are no demons in any Pagan pantheon that I've ever heard of, and they certainly have no place in Wicca. As Ted said, there would have been many more complaints if a cross or Star of David had been used in such a way. --[1955]-- (pref = [1951], nref = [1962]) [1958] leira@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/12/89 14:45 (5 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sun Nov 12 Bill -- are you saying that it's just fine to display swastikas, for instance, all over the place because they're only offensive to some people? Would you have responded the same way if there was a complaint about a cross or a Star of David used in a manner that was clearly the antithesis of what those symbols stand for? --[1958]-- (pref = [1956], nref = [1959]) [1960] rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/12/89 15:56 (10 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sun Nov 12 It doesn't matter to how many people it's offensive. Speech is protected, no matter how offensive it may be (or at least it should be; unfortunately there are forces trying to cut back on freedom of expression). That's not to say that it's improper to point out that someone's using a symbol in a way that's offensive to someone else, and to point out the "proper" use, but simply that people have a right to say or express things that may be disagreeable to others. Whether the symbol's a pentagram, swastika, or star of david is irrelevant. BTW, there's nothing wrong with walking out on something, either. --[1960]-- (pref = [1959], nref = [1961]) [1961] henry@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/12/89 22:40 (6 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sun Nov 12 thanks, robert. we all have our hot-spots; pointing out proper use is certainly reasonable. prohibiting communication is not reasonable ... even if you don't like what's being said. --[1961]-- (pref = [1960], nref = [1965]) [1962] sethf@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/13/89 00:34 (18 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 Could someone supply some reference (authoritative or historical) to the invoke-into-triagles practice? I'm truly interested. I don't have any of my reference books with me (packed away in New York), but my reading on this topic ranges much wider than typical F&SF, and I don't recall triangles. My understanding is that entities (not necessarily demons) get conjured into the pentagon inside the pentagram, with the magician standing outside (at least in medieval European practice). Semitic/Quabbalah technique may use the hexagon inside the Star of David. Circumscribing circles are optional. For involved mystic symbolism, the triangle is a rather dull figure. I agree strongly that offensive speech should be completely protected. Yes, even swastika displays; remember the Skokie case (Nazis wanted to march, the town tried to deny them a permit). There probably would have been more complaints if the cross or Star of David had been used. That doesn't make the complaints right. PAGANS should be the LAST people to be talking about regulating speech based on "offensiveness". History shows that. --[1962]-- (pref = [1955], nref = [1966]) [1965] wesommer@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/13/89 12:33 (1 line) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sun Nov 12 Re [1958]: (is it "just fine" to display "offensive" symbols?): Yes. --[1965]-- (pref = [1961]) [1966] mcdonald@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/13/89 12:53 (22 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 On the subject of invocations, etc. There may not be any demons in Wicca theology, but at least some Wiccans believe in other beings which can be summoned and appealed to: "Apart from the spirits that inhabit the four Elements of Air, Fire, Earth, and Water there are the other nature essences, as any good Wiccan will tell you: tree spirits or Dryads, for example." ---Practical Celtic Magic The book also describes several rituals, including one to invoke Elemental Spirits. That particular ritual did not include any circle, triangle, or pentagram, but there were several citations, including A.E.Waite, a famed 19th century occultist. I remember reading part of the book cited; I believe Waite does describe using circles, and also pentagrams, and also triangles and several variations for specific types of beings. I don't remember whether the pentacle was to be upright or inverted, or whether it was of particular importance, in Waite's book. Disclaimer: I am not a Wiccan, nor a practicing anything; I just happened to do some research recently. Actually, this article does not help the current discussion, which seems to have gone to a slightly different track, but I thought it might be interesting --[1966]-- (pref = [1962], nref = [1968]) [1968] sethg@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/13/89 22:35 (37 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 *** The Overjerked Free-Speech Knee (OFSK) *** This phenomenon is quite common on Usenet netnews. Recent transactions on discuss suggest that some discuss users have this malady. Victims of OFSK show themselves when they hear somebody criticize another person's statements for being offensive, insensitive, uncouth, or otherwise things-that-should-not-have-been-said. In response, the victim will leap up and shout: "Don't censor that person! Freedom of speech!" or words to that effect. Case in point: certain responses to Linda Julien's complaint against the Gilbert and Sullivan Players haughtily remarked that by golly, nobody should censor G&S, no matter how offensive their statements were. This is not at issue: Linda said of G&S, "it is my hope that they will be more considerate in the future." Eariler in the same paragraph, she remarked that religious persecution is not generally tolerated at MIT, but "not tolerated" != "censored." * * * I'm sure that G&S's misuse of the pentagram was their honest mistake, but Linda has every right to object to it. Is anybody disputing this? If G&S performed a dramatic reading of Chaucer's "The Prioress's Tale," wouldn't a Jewish viewer have a right to object? (This tale--one of the Canterbury Tales--is, if memory serves, about a Christian girl stabbed by a Jew, and oozes anti-Semitism. If anyone disputes this point, I can look it up and post choice selections.) * * * According to Vanessa Layne , an upright pentagram is also a symbol of Christ, i.e., the Star over Bethlehem, and the downturned one symbolizes the Satanic goat's head. Organized religion is *so* fascinating. --[1968]-- (pref = [1966], nref = [1969]) [1969] eichin@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/13/89 23:24 (5 lines) Subject: Symbols If memory serves, the swastika was also the seal or emblem of some american indian tribe... my point being that symbols have different meanings to different people... while the wiccans may claim the pentagram as one of their symbols, satanists use it as well... does this mean that wiccans are satanists? noooo... --[1969]-- (pref = [1968], nref = [1971]) [1971] sethf@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/14/89 07:24 (22 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 Give the people here a little credit, this hasn't become a flame war (yet). Nobody is saying leira doesn't have a right to object, or denying the validity of her feelings (that's Free Speech, also). However, criticisms of some the of ideas contained in them are being strongly voiced (which is in turn Free Speech - isn't it wonderful). The references to "religious persecution" and swastikas were a bit inflammatory, especially given the current political situation (Flag burning, Arts grants, and closer to home, University "offensive speech" policies and movie restrictions). In terms of conflict resolution, I had it in mind to suggest "Would it be OK if Wells displayed the pentagram upside-down?". If so, then the G&S players would probably have been willing to making the change, and everybody would have been happy. But the performances were almost over by the time I wrote my reply, rendering that a moot idea. More on pentagrams & pentagons: The relevance of these symbols to conjuring can go much deeper than arbitrary association. Imagine a human bound to a floor. Draw lines connecting the hands, feet, and head, and the result is a pentagon. Or think of one of the Chrysler emblems (a stylized figure in a pentagon). So the pentagon provides a somewhat natural figure for the binding of entities. In addition, if you draw a goat's head, exaggerating the horns, cheeks, and beard, the outline of the figure will be very nearly an open pentagram. --[1971]-- (pref = [1969], nref = [1972]) [1972] wesommer@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/14/89 13:18 (2 lines) Subject: Re: New quotes for Sat Nov 11 For an interesting excursion along these lines, see the Larry Niven short story "Convergent Series", in the anthology of the same name. --[1972]-- (pref = [1971], nref = [1973]) [1973] vanharen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Central_America 11/14/89 14:00 (11 lines) Subject: Re: Symbols >> If memory serves, the swastika was also the seal or emblem of some american >> indian tribe... Actually, they are similar, but not the same. One is the mirror-image of the other (kinda like the way that Mr. Morton Downey, Jr., drew it on his forehead). Hmm. Perhaps he was trying to summon the spirit of Hitler into his head...? -Chris (thinking to himself that CA is not as much fun to read anymore...) --[1973]-- (pref = [1972])